Ep 29 - ADHD Resources for Organization: featuring Missi McKown of Clear Spaces Organizing

This week I’m chatting with my dear friend and biz bestie Missi McKown of Clear Spaces. We chat about how we met, our unconventional long-distance friendship, and we really dive into our favorite resource books for our ADHD clients.

You can listen right here, on Apple, Amazon, Spotify or you can read the transcription below. Enjoy!

Carly: Welcome to the show, Missi.

Missi: Thank you so much for having me here, Carly.

Carly: Before we jump in, I wanted to share how we know each other with everyone because we have been connected since 2019. I consider you one of my closest friends, but, we have only met in person once, and this is maybe the fourth or fifth time we have ever talked live in real-time.

So, Yeah. Do you wanna tell the story of how we met?

Missi: Yes, I'd love to. We met at an organizing conference back in 2019. There was a smaller group of us that decided to go wine tasting together, and towards the end of the day, some people started heading back.

We went to hit one more winery and we just started connecting. We had some funny and unique things in common. I mean, a love of personal finance and budgets, and then the most unique thing that we discovered is that we both at different times in our life had quit our jobs to travel internationally with our spouses.

it is not something that you typically find another person in a room who's like, oh yeah, me too.

Carly: Yeah. A hundred percent

and.

Missi: Oh, go ahead. Sorry. Oh, sorry. I was just going to say, what can I say? It was a strong foundation for a friendship if there ever was one. And we have been able to stay in touch through WhatsApp, which is an incredible tool.

Carly: Yes. Yes, we do. So we have only talked live in real time a number of times – like a handful of times, including this one. I really do think this might be number like five total.

Missi: Yeah, I was going to say maybe four. Yeah.

Carly: but we talk on WhatsApp using voice messages back and forth constantly, often, daily or multiple times a day.

And it is usually about business, but a lot of times we are just talking. Status updates. What's going on? we are talking about Below Deck.

Missi: Lately, we have been talking about the weather. I mean,

Carly: Oh my gosh. I know because it is been very, very stormy here in Northern California where we, at the time of this recording, are just coming out of these major storm systems back to back, and then Missi gets a lot of snow where she lives.

Yes, I hear about your adventures with your driveway.

Missi: Yes. Yeah, Minnesota winters. Gotta love them. Yeah, it is

Carly: we have had a lot going on this winter. To add to the random things we have in common, it is worth noting that we are both drinking, –not planned– I didn't even know you own this, but we apparently have the same plastic green tumbler from Target that we are both hydrating with today right now.

So we were like, of course. Of course we are drinking from the same cup. Why not?

Missi: Just add it to the list of the weird, random, unique things that we have in common. Yeah. I love it.

Carly: Me too. Can you tell us who you are and what you do in the world?

Missi: I would love to. I'm an auntie to seven lovely humans that I adore. I used to have a really black thumb and I have been trying to have a green thumb. I used to kill my plants all the time, and the pandemic gave me lots of opportunities to start collecting more.

Carly: Yes, ditto.

Missi: My collection has maybe become a little, not out of control, but, expansive. And I love it. I just love learning new things and yeah, anyways, that's been fun for me. I'm also a wine aficionado, wannabe, like I love trying new wines. I have been out to California many times. Ironically, not since the last time in 2019, otherwise, I would've seen Carly again.

Carly: Yeah. Yeah. But you'll be here this year.

Missi: That's true. Yeah. Yeah, so anyway. I like to try a lot of different wines and I like to dance as often as possible. I'm trying to incorporate more fun and playfulness into my life, and dance is a fun way to do that. I did not grow up dancing or ever even took a dance class. It's just been kind of fun to experiment with.

Then in my day-to-day life, I help people declutter and organize and create systems for their homes just to make their life a little bit easier. It is very high on the list of the most rewarding things that I get to do. I love it. I grew up in a messy home and created one myself for years. Before organizing my own space from top to bottom and then teaching myself how to kick the habits that created all the clutter in the first place.

So I love helping other people live lighter with more peace and calm in their homes as well.

Carly: Awesome. Tell us your business name and where you're located.

Missi: Sure it is Clear Spaces Professional Organizing, and I'm based in the Twin Cities, Minneapolis, St. Paul, Minnesota

Carly: Yep. This is why we don't see each other because we are a little far away. But that's okay because we are in close contact.

So we are here to talk about a couple of books about ADHD that we have both used as resources for clients and as a disclaimer, you will quickly see neither of us is an expert on the topic by any means, but it comes up a lot for both of us with our clients, with my students,

And I know we have both recommended these a lot. In fact, I know that the first book we are going to talk about, you recommended to me. So we are going to dig into these two books that we love.

Let's start with Organizing Solutions For People with ADHD by Susan Pinsky. I will have these linked in the show notes as well.

I know we both have a couple of favorite things we have picked about each book, so I'll let you kick it off with your first one.

Missi: Sure. What I loved about this book was, just really the person who wrote it was thinking about it from a very ADHD perspective, which just gave me a lot of insight. I started having more and more clients come to me and tell me upfront that they had ADHD and I was like, I should make sure that I can learn more about this to better help and serve the people that I'm working with.

One idea that came from this book was talking about things like, this is a really simple idea, but having cleaning supplies in every bathroom. They said they really tried to push you away from having all of the cleaning products in one area because if someone with ADHD goes to that space to grab the cleaning products to clean the bathroom, on the way there or on the way back, they will have seen something else or gotten distracted by something else and it just doesn't happen. So, make it as simple as possible, and keep things as close to where you use them as humanly possible. When I read that I was like, well, yeah, that makes total sense from an efficiency standpoint, but it was really helpful to understand the why behind it.

Carly: I love it. I found that a lot of her book was definitely super practical and that probably was my favorite, like my first favorite thing. This is the first book that I read about organizing specifically for ADHD.

I loved that in the beginning– the book is kind of two portions. The beginning gives you an overview and talks about some practical tips. Then the second half is room-by-room guides, which I'll dig into for my second point. But in the first part, I was really happy to learn a lot of the advice she was giving was really similar to advice that I was already giving clients.

Missi: All clients. Yes.

Carly: And it wasn't, and I know you and I share a lot of the same ideals about organizing and using decluttering as a foundation and really as simplifying things. I mean, your business name is Clear Spaces.

To see those principles as they applied to folks with ADHD, I was like, oh my gosh. I just felt so much better because seeing simplicity as a focus in ways that I was thinking about already, it didn't feel daunting. I felt like I was on the right track, but it was also good to really learn kind of like the why and brain function reasoning.

Why this is important and why it is important to do things in certain ways.

Missi: Yeah, I agree completely. It was very validating to go through it and be like, oh, great, I already do that. I already do that. And just to know that it is helpful for everybody.

Okay. Point two. , I love this idea because this is something I do for myself too.

When it was talking about closets specifically, a lot of people can't be bothered to open a lid for something, and/or putting it back is even harder. So open bins for different clothing separated by types is such a helpful tip for folks with ADHD because it is just easy to grab and go and toss it back in.

Some of the people that I have worked with just could care less how it looks, as long as it is quick and easy, and functional. Mm-hmm. totally.

Carly: And the lid thing was really a game changer and I. Have found that many, like as you end up talking with clients about solutions and kind of asking, okay, which of these options feels better?

That is kind of where I start with things like the no-lid situation. People feel very strongly about lids versus no lids.

Carly: That's true. sometimes in ways I am shocked about. Sometimes I'm like, but this would be insanely easier. And they're like, no, I want a lid. And you're like, okay. But if it feels better to you, then that is the answer. The no lid made so much sense. I feel like for most situations for folks with ADHD, a lot of my clients tend to gravitate towards clear bins, no lid.

Missi: Yes, a hundred percent. And that's where, because they can see it.

Carly: Yeah. Yeah. I did have a client recently, we were redoing a closet and they decided they wanted to be able to see a little bit.

Not completely see-through. So we used these bins called the Chancellor Baskets at The Container Store. My brain always says Chandler Baskets. They're not with Friends saying Chancellor baskets. And, you know, they are white. I think they also come in gray, but then they have little slits in them.

My client found that was enough so that they could just get a peak and kind of see the levels of how high things were. So if they were running out of socks or running out of underwear, they could see it, but it also wouldn't be distracting, because they have an open closet and it faces the rest of their room.

So they were like, if it is clear, it is going to be too visually distracting. I need to not be distracted, and be able to see a little bit. So that plus labels equals the system and it is a system that has been kept up for a record-breaking amount of time in the household. I'm very happy about that.

We had a meeting yesterday. I was like, yes, we did it. But it is a collaboration. It wasn't just me saying, you have got to do this, you know, it is a lot that back and forth.

I really love that this book has room guides. So I'll be honest, I never read it cover to cover.

I read the beginning and then I kind of glanced through it. But sometimes if I have a Client who specifically has ADHD or a family member does, then we are working through a specific room. I'll use it just as a reference guide on an ongoing basis.

It is not just bedrooms. It is like bedrooms and teen bedrooms. They might even have children's bedrooms. I know they have playrooms. It gets into very, very specific instructions and there are photos, and all in all, it is over 200 pages. So it is a pretty chunky book

Missi: in a great way. I agree, it is super helpful to just use it as a reference like you mentioned. I am a little bit of a book nerd, so I did read it cover to cover because I just am like, let's take in all the information. But, it is been really helpful just to have that foundation, because everybody's ADHD manifests itself differently.

Yes. And you touched on such a great point too. It might not necessarily be the client themselves, but somebody else in the home, a child, a partner, whatever, and making sure we are setting up a system that's going to be easy and intuitive for them as well to maintain

Carly: mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Really having that buy-in from the household is so important.

This client that I'm working with right now, they're a tween. It is very important that we are working with them versus telling them how the room should go, because when tweens and teens especially have buy-in about placement and systems. They are infinitely more likely to keep it up.

There have been multiple times in my career where in working with a teen or a tween, we have come up with either unconventional systems or they have ideas of things I wouldn't have thought about, but because it works better for them and we run with it and lean into it. It's a win-win because the room is kept up, but there is a system in place.

It just might not be the one that I was thinking of originally.

Missi: Right. Yeah. And, oftentimes, especially that age, you're talking about in the teens too. They have an idea of exactly what they want. They just need help getting it there.

Carly: Yeah, exactly. We were teens once and it is hard. You don't have the resources. You don't have the things you need to make it happen. So it is really fun when we can help people do that.

We also wanted to touch on a second book that we both love. We are excited to talk about this book and actually by the time this airs, the author of this book, Lisa Woodruff, the episode will have been last week, so, I'm excited to dig into this book a little bit more and you at home might be thinking that I'm obsessed with it, and the answer is yes. Yes, I am. It is How ADHD Affects Home Organization: Understanding the Role of the 8 Key Executive Functions of the Mind.

And Missi, I'm going to let you dive into your favorite thing.

Missi: Okay. Well, my favorite thing is that she started, she kicked the book off with the eight executive functions of how the brain works.

I have noticed– and Carly, I'm sure you've noticed this too– that you know different people who have ADHD. It manifests itself in so many different ways. And so I when was reading this, I was like, oh, this is wildly helpful in really breaking it down. I don't know if I may have shared this with you, but I'm just starting to explore that I may have ADHD, I have one client who's been strongly campaigning for this for like a year.

She's like, Missi, you think how I think? And she's like, I think you have it. I think you should, you know, look into it more. As I was reading it, I was like, oh, okay. I could see this in me too. So it was really, really interesting and really helpful. To just see like, okay, if it is executive functioning, this is what this looks like.

Then in my second favorite part of the book, I'm going to pick on one of those specifically, but I'll stop there so you can share about your favorite.

Carly: Yeah, yeah. I truly love that too. I think I talk about that a little bit in my second example. But, in the beginning, another thing that I liked specifically was, I mean, this is page 24. So she jumps into it really, really quickly at 23. Excuse me, the one goes back. But as she's kicking it off, she's talking about why I'm breaking down the intro. The intro is very, very helpful and has a lot of gold there. And I loved her three tips that always work.

I'm just going to break them down here because they're so, so good.

She phrases them differently, but it is essentially getting accountability. She talks about the importance of hiring an organizer. This is something we talk about a lot in our group because of accountability, and accountability and having folks around you who are cheering you on is such a big, important part of that.

Also figuring out structure and routines. Making a plan is also a huge focus for her three things. Then the last one is having less stuff, which I think can sometimes be overlooked as far as importance. But if you're stressed out about too much stuff, having less is guaranteed to be part of an answer that helps you. It is not about restriction, but it is really about examining your personal habits and examining what is excess and what you don't need.

Missi: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know that our favorite part is to start with decluttering.

Carly: Oh my gosh. My favorite, favorite part. It is amazing.

Missi: It is. It gives you the most lasting results. Once the items you don't need, use, and love are out of your house. They're out of your house for good.

And so you have all that space back and that mental space back.

Carly: Yep.

Missi: Yep. Okay. I could go on a tangent, but you know, the physical stuff is so connected to the emotional stuff. When people hear that you're a professional organizer and they're like, oh my gosh, I need you to organize my mind.

And I'm like, well, organizing the physical stuff really will give you that same result because a lot of people have that mental… I don't know whether I want to call it a mental block, but the mental weight of knowing that there is a space in their house that is bugging them, or multiple spaces where they just can't seem to get it quite right or they can't stay on top of it, or you know, there is no system or something is not working right.

Then when you do come in and you work with people to find out what you actually need and how can we create this so that it works with your lifestyle, you find that system that is the right fit. All of a sudden there is this mental energy suddenly freed up as well as the physical space in their home.

Those two are so closely tied. I feel like our physical environments reflect what is going on in our heads a lot of the time. Especially if we are going through a transition or, you know, something big is happening. Yeah. Super passionate about it.

Carly: Of course. No, I remember when I was going through my Clutter-Free journey because you and I have very similar origin stories as far as getting into organization. I used to spend so much time even just getting ready for the day and it would take me, it could take me like 45 minutes, easy to find an outfit. These days it is always less than five minutes, always. Even if I'm going to an event because it will either be, usually it is I'm going to re-wear something in a small collection I have and I just rotate out those occasion dresses until I'm tired of them and then I let them go and get a new one to replace this cycle.

Sometimes I might have to get an outfit, but rarely. I really don't like that feeling of being stressed about what to wear for a large event. But anyway, that's beside the point. The point is you only have so much bandwidth for making decisions all day. So even something that seems as simple as streamlining my closet means that I haven't used up 20 decisions in the first hour of my day thinking, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no. Instead, it is just blue, blue. Done. And then I just put on an outfit because I know everything works. And I know if you listen to the podcast a lot, you're like, lady, you use this example frequently. And I do because it is changed my life that dramatically.

But yeah, we only have so much bandwidth and these little things running through our heads can just use it up so quickly.

Missi: Yeah, yeah. Definitely. It can weigh you down and clog things up. Yes. Life is better with less.

Carly: Yes, truly.

Okay. Second favorite thing about this book.

Missi: Okay. My second favorite thing is when Lisa talks about perfectionism and how it can kind of stop ADHD in its tracks.

She often repeats in her books that done is better than perfect, and it is so, so true.

I have one client who has ADHD and she really responded to the phrase like, let's just try it. Because on her own, she was used to just looking to an expert to be told, buy this organizer for this item and it'll change your life. And so she would.

Then when it didn't work, she told me, “I feel like a failure because I did what they said to do.”

That's really a defeating message. and, just a crummy feeling in general. So when we would work together, I would say things like, let's just try this for a bit. See how this feels. Then if we need to make adjustments, we can tweak it. We did tweak some things, but for other things she was just like, oh my gosh, this is it. We don't know it until we try it.

I feel like there's sometimes this idea behind organizing that there's one exact right way to do it. And if you don't find it, then you're just screwed.

Carly: Yes.

Missi: And it is not true. There's a bunch of different ways and it is really finding…you described it as like what feels right when we were chatting right before this, what feels best to you.
That is a huge part of it. Working so closely with your client to help them understand what feels right to you and what's going to feel the most intuitive to you? because that's the goal– to create something that's a simple enough system that they can maintain it once we are gone.

Carly: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I know that you're always saying this too, but we don't live in our client's house.

You guys do.

It is important that the system is something you feel confident in, and that it is simplistic to run with and keep up with. When I was a younger organizer, I was really focused on, you know, I really wanted to like blow people away with these innovative designs I have never seen before.

I realized quickly that that was stupid because I needed to really just focus on creating the simplest solution in the world. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. You just need to look at a space and say, how can we organize it and maintain it as simply as possible? And that really needs to be the focus,

Missi: right.

Right. Done is better than perfect. Thank you, Lisa.

Carly: Better than perfect. Thank you. I love that this book is all about learning how your brain works. So she goes through the executive functions, and then she also gives really specific examples about what that means. How it ties into ADHD, suggestions about how that applies to real life as far as organization, and then what to do with the issue that you are having for each one. So like for flexible thinking, she was talking about how she was organizing a bedroom drawer. The organizers she had weren't working and it was a bedside table chore.

So the organizers she had weren't working. They were more square and they didn’t fit what she needed them to fit in. So she got the dimensions, went to the store, and was looking for organizers that fit. So, you know how stores are kinda laid out room by room? She started with that room but wasn't finding what she looked for.

So then she started looking at other sections as well… bathroom, Home office, kitchen… And she found that what ended up working for her was a desk organizer. It just had what she needed as far as compartment sizing and it fit the space. Great. She ended up working with that, but she was like, if I'd been so rigid in my thinking, I wouldn't have even gone to the home office section because I wouldn't have had it in my brain that that could be an option. She realized that even flexible thinking in the way of solutions could be helpful for this.

In our work, sometimes I end up using bungees or something in the most random spot ever. But it is the thing where you're like, and now this isn't moving, or you know, whatever it is.

It is just things like that where you have to kind of think slightly outside the box, but a lot of times that can be easier if you are an organizer who is working in all sorts of rooms all the time.

Missi: Yeah, absolutely

Carly: As another organizer who regularly works with folks with ADHD, what do you want people to know about ADHD and home organization?

Missi: I think one of the most helpful things that I have found is that the clients that I'm working with that have ADHD, a lot of them say to me, Missi, I don't do this when you're not here.

I think it was actually the first book by Susan Pinsky that first talked about body doubling. Lisa touches on it a little bit as well. Body doubling, if you're not familiar with it, is this idea where having another person, even just in the room when you are doing a task that is not enjoyable. Something that you've been putting off for a while.

They don't have to be doing the task with you.They could be reading a book, doing their own thing, whatever. But just that physical presence is really helpful for folks with ADHD to just help them focus and to have that built-in accountability.

When you're hiring an organizer, that is a huge part of it– the body doubling. Then they are also helping you do the thing that you've been putting off that you want to get done, but you just don't seem to have the motivation to get started with it.

I have found that to be really valuable for my clients. And they get it because they’ve been saying, I have had this task on my to-do list for how long? I mean, some clients have been like, this has looked this way for 10 years, 20 years, whatever it is.

Especially if there is a room or a space that has kind of become the dumping zone. I keep referring to the weight that is lifted, but it is like, you see it, you see it when you're at the end of the session where people are like, oh my gosh, I feel calmer or the house feels more peaceful now.

You are making those steps to help them reach their goals.

Carly: Yeah, absolutely. And about the body doubling, I found that that is so true as well, and many of my ADHD clients talk about that. Something interesting came up for us, I know this is kind of a plug, but It just has to be said. We have a lot of time built into my private community in the Q & A calls, and then these longer stretches of time that are called Day of Tidy, where we basically set aside three hours, and whoever is free can come during any and all of that time. But, even the Q & A calls, we have mandated both of these can be set aside for people to work on their own projects. So there's no pressure to have your camera on, to always have your sound on, to always be in the moment with the call. Some people have found it really helpful to use that time and have it set aside like body doubling. And even though it is not in person, having other people as your accountability partners even virtually has worked too.

So I found that to be really, really interesting. People have said specifically, I didn't think this was going to be possible virtually, but I'm still getting the results. I'm still getting the benefits of the body doubling.

I just think that is so, so cool. And something to consider whether, whether you decide to join our community or you do it with a friend and have accountability in another way. Absolutely. Yeah.

Any final thoughts Missi??

Missi: The more that I have been learning about ADHD, the more interesting I find it. ADHD has been linked to genetics and heredity and stuff like that. So often people will come to me saying one of their kids may have ADHD. Well, the studies are showing that the chances are at a minimum of 50% that one of their parents has it as well.

I just think it is so cool to be invited into those spaces and help develop systems that help the whole family. I believe that it helps anyone and everyone live their life better and simpler and more efficiently and just easier. You can breathe a little easier with some organization. For people with ADHD especially, it is like an extra bump up . It is an extra leg up to be like, here. This can help you in just so many different areas of your life.

Carly: Absolutely, a hundred percent. I want to give you a big, big thank you for coming on today and talking about this. We have three episodes in this kind of mini-series on the podcast, talking about specifically ADHD and home organization and how it all comes together. And, the episode that we are having next week, I am very excited because you introduced me to this person and we are going to be talking with an ADHD coach.

As far as the podcast goes, but also as far as my life goes, I just wanted to say thank you because you make such a difference in it and I appreciate you.

Missi: Oh my goodness. The feeling is very, very mutual. Thank you so much for inviting me to be on the podcast. I'm also excited to hear, I'm guessing that's Jen that you have coming next week.

Carly: Yep.

Missi: Yay. I can't wait to.

Carly: Yeah, me too. It's going to be so good.

Where can folks find you? We'll be sure to keep to have your links in the show notes as well. Where can folks find you on the internet?

Missi: I'm on Instagram at Clear Spaces Organizing and on Facebook as well Clear Spaces Organizing MN for Minnesota. There are links to my website there. I'm sure Carly will link that up too, but happy to help if people want to work together virtually or in person. Yeah, this is a passion for me and I would love to help you make your home more peaceful.

Carly: Awesome. Thank you so much, Missi, and we will definitely have to have you back in the future to talk about more home organization goodness.

Missi: Thanks Carly.

Thank you for tuning in today. If you want to learn more about how I can help you, please head to Tidy Revival dot com to learn more about how I work with people one-on-one or in our Clutter-Free Home Process private community. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to subscribe so you'll always have access to the latest episode.

We would love to hear your takeaways! Feel free to tag us at Tidy Revival on Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok. The Tidy Revival podcast is written and hosted by me, Carly Adams, and edited by Brittany McLean. Title Song Maverick is by Dresden The Flamingo.

Until next time, remember that…