Ep 23 - The Intersection of Therapy and Clutter: Featuring Robyn Gray- Part 2

 

 Welcome. Welcome. So happy to have you here today to tune into the second half of my conversation with Robyn Gray. I'm just gonna have us jump back into where we left off last week. If you haven't tuned into that episode, highly suggest going back a week and starting with the first half of our conversation, and let's just dive on in.

You can listen right here, on Apple, Amazon, Spotify or you can read the transcription below. Enjoy!

 
 
 
 

Carly: If somebody is wondering if they would be a good candidate for the type of work that you do, i.e. therapy and digging deep with regards to trauma, what would you tell them to kind of make that personal assessment?

Robyn: That's a good question. If they think they want it, I am there for them. I know that sounds kind of weird. you meet as a therapist. Our job is to meet people where they are, and not everybody sees a problem in what they're doing, and it's not up to me to say, “This is a problem in your life.”

So I would say, yeah, if they're willing to come to therapy, then they are a perfect candidate for it. No matter how extreme or minimal their concerns are about what they're doing. If they're willing to explore it — even if they're not and they struggle with exploring it — we can do a lot of work still with people.

You know, I have people who are super motivated at first when they come in, and then as we start going a little bit deeper, we call these “protectors and parts” work therapy, their protectors come in and are like, “Oh no, no, no, no. I actually don't want to change this anymore.” We can work with that protector.

And, again, it's about exploring — what is the function of us doing this? And also what are the fears if we didn't have this in our life anymore? It will work with people at any stage of their recovery with this stuff. And even if they choose in the work that they don't want to change that pattern anymore, that's fine.

Like that is their right. They have agency. And my job is not to tell people what they need to be working on, but more about just holding their hand as they are working on things that they find important in their life.

Carly: Yeah, that, that can come up in my work as well. Obviously not going to get into specifics, but when you can recognize that someone has reached an internal stopping point where it has become too uncomfortable emotionally to continue and to dig into the background behind why this is going on. If you reach that level of resistance, it's not my place to push you through it. Like, that's not going to be doing any good. And so I think that's really important for people to realize. Because there is that fine line between being a cheerleader and what I say is “pushing" over the invisible line.

Robyn: Yeah.

Carly: Where people, you can end up shutting down or regressing or completely changing your mind and saying, “You know what, I don't want to work on this. And I don't indefinitely.” And everyone has, the right to make those choices for themselves.

Robyn: Exactly. Absolutely.

Carly: How do you feel — and this isn't in the questions that I gave you — if somebody is struggling with clutter specifically, and they have an inkling that it might be trauma-related, how would you suggest people kind of think about that and dig into that to recognize if it is trauma-informed or not?

Robyn: Good question! So this is where somatic work can be really powerful with people and parts work is one. I would ask them just where they already see the connection, what they're coming in with. And then I would really explore just the relationship with clutter.

What it feels like in their body when they're talking about the clutter in their home. Or the shame that they feel with it. And then, with somatic work, we really use the body's felt sense, and so we're going to go really slow with that. It's not necessarily thinking our way back, but it's feeling our way back.

And so if somebody's discussing this and they're like, I think this is related, let's say to like childhood poverty, right? Or a scarcity mentality growing up. And so they, as an adult, if they have the means, they might say, yeah, I buy a lot of stuff now because I can — and I couldn't 

And that might be what they know logically. So on the somatic level, we're going to explore like one, where they're feeling that in their body, what the felt sense is coming up, what the familiar senses are. And there could be a whole podcast on this, but the bodies start bringing up different memories, it'll start bringing up different experiences where that feeling was in their past.

So our body, our body keeps the score, our body holds onto memories. And then we can do some deeper work there where we're either doing maybe some inner child work or reparenting work or catching the system up to where that person is in life today, because that happens so often where a part of us is stuck in our past, rightfully so, and our adult self has a different value, different beliefs, but there's a younger part or a different part of us that still has that scarcity feeling.

And so a lot of that work is unburdening that part of us and catching it up to who we are today. And then with that, that's where the system feels more integrated. So it would be something like that. And that could take, to be honest, that type of work — we always say “Slow healing is fast healing” in therapy.

Yeah. And these are complex issues that come up for people. So it could take months, it could take, for some people it's just a few sessions depending on how chronic their trauma was or how consistent it was in their life versus an acute trauma. And for some people, it takes years, if it's more complex PTSD.

So we just go with our body system and through that — and we want to stay in their window of tolerance, right? And so it's just about really exploring, again, that mind-body connection and what memories these are maybe associated with or experiences.

Carly: That's awesome. I really appreciate going deep into the techniques and talking about it. Because I think that if you're not doing the work, sometimes it's hard to kind of have that insight. Yes. Or even think about what those processes look like. And even if somebody is researching therapy, I know it, and you're reading a little bit on a website or something. Yeah. I know this is going to be really helpful for a lot of people, so thank you.

Robyn: Oh, sure. Yeah.

Carly: I have a random question. I see this pop up a lot and I'm wondering if you see it too. If the answer is no, then no harm, no foul. But I figured I would ask. So I end up working with a lot of people who are more in my age range, like an elder millennial age. 

But I do have Gen X clients. I do have baby boomer-aged clients. And what I have found a lot of times is that we can quickly link generational trauma, linked to clutter stemming from depression and how it affected depression-era folks whose children were baby boomers, and they got this direct effect of like, “We need to hold onto everything.”

That was very trauma-informed and rightly so. And then from there the next generation down, typically elder millennials then are rejecting it, but also had deeply held onto this but wants to like, change things. And I just, I see it again and again and I'm wondering if it comes up in the work that you do.

Robyn: Absolutely. Yeah. Intergenerational trauma is a real thing and so, we carry it in our bodies and in our own nervous systems, so yeah, that's very, very common. Like I said, I see adults, but I see young 20-year-olds all the way up to eighties. I have some clients, and there absolutely is a distinction in that with those raised in the depression era.

And yeah, I think the insight around that can be incredibly helpful for them to recognize where some of that's coming from. And again, with that work, it's about catching their internal system up to where their lives are today, if they're financially secure now, and things like that.

But also giving compassion to the parts of them still holding onto those values of keeping everything like, okay, that makes sense. And that's what was modeled for you, and we do what's modeled for us. So absolutely unpacking that is really empowering for people to see. In grad school, we were always taught, don't ask why, because it's really judgmental.

But you can ask why! I tell clients all the time, ask yourself, why am I doing what I'm doing? In a very gentle way, it can really help us see like, oh, this makes sense why I do it like this. Or people who grew up with a family who maybe it was a really cluttered home and that was overwhelming to their system.

Highly-sensitive people can really struggle with that. And so they might be against keeping things. But again, we want to look at that like, okay, where is that coming from? And then again, just giving a lot of compassion there, if that makes sense with it overwhelming your system when you were younger.

And sometimes that pendulum can swing so far the other way that then they are rejecting physical items to the point where they don't necessarily have what they need in a very basic sense, and it's taking up so much of their energy to make frequent trips to the store to get that one thing.

Where if you just had one more in stock, it could solve a lot of problems for you with time management. 

Carly: Okay. I am really glad that you find that too because we talk a lot about it in the industry and I'm like, this cannot, like I cannot be the only person who is seeing this constantly.

Robyn: No, absolutely not. Yeah. That's very prevalent.

Carly: So I talk about this all the time. Obviously we've talked about this a lot today, but dealing with clutter can feel so isolating for so many people. And would you have any words of encouragement about this specifically to share with folks?

Robyn: Yeah, I think first and foremost, like I said, you live in a consumer society and culture and we get dopamine hits when we buy things . So I say this a lot to clients, “There is no judgment for you doing something to try to make yourself feel better.” And hearing that so many people just instantly like, “Ooh, oh, okay. I didn't think of it that way.” So I would say one, nobody is alone in this.

I think people don't talk about it, right? Because there is a lot of shame and embarrassment, and I wish more people talked about it, like how you're doing this and making it more public. So many people struggle with this. So one, you're not alone. Two, it makes sense that this is happening, especially in our culture. I mean, it just does, and I would just say, really work on the self-compassion piece. I think, again, finding the function and reward to having clutter, which I know sounds so counterintuitive. But that is the first step in really deconstructing that shame and guilt and embarrassment around it.

That just really can help people feel more settled and reduce that shame. And so I think that that's truly the most important message here: it’s not your fault. It doesn't make you a bad person or a messy person or a lazy person. Like, let's let go of the labels and just see and get curious. How has this served me to have the clutter or to have these things that eventually turned into clutter? Right? And start there. Curiosity is a really powerful thing in terms of our healing and our growth as human beings.

Carly: And even sometimes a slight tweak in a habit that you create based on the “How does it serve me?” conversation can be really helpful.

For me, when I was going on my decluttering and debt-free journey, which was like a simultaneous thing, I dipped into my finances and found that most of my free money was being spent at Starbucks, Taco Bell, and Walgreens because they were all within walking distance of my office building. And what I really found was like, okay, if I'm having a bad day, or if I am just bored in the afternoon, that I'm kind of doing a little window shopping and buying like another nail polish, another lip gloss.

So I have, 20 nail polishes that I was never using. 15,000 lip glosses that I wasn't really using. So then I can take that — and at the time I couldn't financially afford it, so I just needed to find a different hobby. But now if I know that like, okay, I have more of a flex income and I have this more money that I can spend on myself, what is something that I can do to spend money on myself and get that dopamine hit, but isn't something that's going to last in my home that I will not use.

Robyn: Exactly. Well that's, that's such a good point. Because when we see what it's doing to serve us as a dopamine hit, or I feel empowered that I can go buy this thing. Right?

That feels really good. Then we can say, how else can I meet that need? Right. Yes. Right. Maybe I can do something else or take an art class where it's maybe delayed gratification. That's the other thing. We also live in a society that really values immediate gratification. And so it's about expanding our capacity to be in those feelings and see that there are other ways of getting those needs met. We just have to get creative and we have to get curious.

Carly: Side note, a clutter-free way to get a little dopamine hit is to make a donation to an organization that you love and share about it. You don't even have to say like, “humble brag, I donated!” but you could share, “Hey, I noticed such and such has this wishlist going on, and I love this organization because X, Y, Z.” And something like that can make you feel really good, but then you don't have another scarf that costs five dollars.

Robyn: Exactly. Yeah. Giving back is a huge thing. And I think also, and which I'm sure you work with a lot of people on this — we’re not throwing away this stuff necessarily. It's giving to somebody else who's in need. Yes. And how is this going to serve them? Right. Because so often we get stuck with, well, it's serving me.

And it's like, yes, maybe it served you 10 years ago, but is it still serving you in that same way? And then expanding on that and how can this serve somebody else who maybe doesn't have the means to get it? Or something like that can be really powerful for people.

Carly: Mm, absolutely. And I have found, I talked about this recently, but I have found that for many people when we dig into, when they come to me and they say, I don't know why I'm doing air quotes here, but this is a phrase verbatim that comes up.

“I don't know why, but it's really hard for me to ‘let go' of things." When I hear that, I say, okay, let's dig into that a little bit more. Is it that it's actually hard for you to let go of things, or is it hard for you to “let go” of things? Because you don't feel like they're going to go to a good enough home, but if they went to a really good home that you felt good about, would that make it emotionally easier?

Nine times out of 10, the answer is, oh yeah, if I felt like it was going to a good home, I could give it away left and right. So then we're talking about those possibilities. Once you open that door, the floodgates are open. I had a client say to me recently, I guess her husband came home after our first session and was instantly on board with the money that we spent together because this change had happened.

And he said something along the lines of like, “Why is it so easy for you to get rid of your crap when she comes over, but like, not when I tell you to do it?” And she's like, “Well, first of all, she doesn't frame it like that!”

Robyn: Yeah. That's a lot to unpack there.

Carly: But it's really about reframing. Where is this going to go? Why are we making these decisions? What is the next step? Who does it serve? And when we can get answers to that that feel really good and there's ease behind it, that can be the thing that clicks for people.

Robyn: Well, yeah. And you're giving people agency versus our partner.

We need to get rid of this. And now it's being held almost hostage to do that, where we feel forced — that “should” that doesn't help us. And so, being able to come up with our own reasons is so empowering. We'll make different choices when it's coming from us versus someone telling us, quote, “What we should be doing.”

Carly: Yeah. And when we take the nagging out of it, because women, we get a bad rap for nagging, but like, everybody nags, come on. Oh yeah. Like it's a thing. But we talk in the course community a lot because the question comes up of, “How do I get my spouse on board?” The phrase we use in the community is control, which you can control because we can't make these decisions for other people.

But much like if you decided that you wanted to get fit and work out, if you started going to the gym and then your partner sees how much fun you're having and then you gently invite them to come with you sometime because it's so much fun… that feels better than you going to them and saying, “Hey, I'm going to go to the gym — and also you're fat, so you should come with me too because you need to lose some weight.” Which one of those feels better? Exactly. So we have to all think about the messages that we're putting out and the way in which we are offering it — and if it is an invitation or not.

Robyn: Exactly. That's a great word, invitation. And modeling is incredibly powerful in our interpersonal relationships. So absolutely, I love it.

Carly: Robyn, is there anything else that you would want people to know about this work? Any misconceptions or any points of interest or just anything you feel people should know?

Robyn: Let's see. I think, I'm going to go back to the shame that there's no shame in this. You have nothing to be embarrassed about if you're struggling with something like this and that there is help out there, there's support out there for people who want to look at this, want to learn more about why they're doing what they're doing.

I think more than anything, I really want to deconstruct what people think therapy is — the whole fixing — and nobody is broken. I have that on my website in my bio. Like I am not here to fix you. I am here to help you just come back to your core self.

Because we all have that and we all do things to cope in life that are, I'm putting this in quotes because I hate this phrase, “maladaptive.” They're not maladaptive, but others might see them that way. 

Carly: Would you mind digging into that for those of us like myself that don’t know what that means?

Robyn: So, maladaptive behaviors, they use this a lot in psychology. It's incredibly shaming, but I get why we use it. Behaviors that like are harming us, right? So eating disorders, hoarding, addiction, stuff like that. Just on the surface, these are not maladaptive behaviors. As I said, we are all doing what we can to try to feel better.

This is part of it. And so I think if we can see ourselves more as human beings doing the best that we can. That can be really powerful. And so that is the one message I want people to know that that is really what good therapy is about! It's not about fixing you, because you're not broken, and it's just about a safe space to explore with curiosity, with compassion, and that can be really empowering.

So yeah, that's what I want people to know about this work.

Carly: I love it so much, and I just, again, really appreciate you taking the time to come on and chat with me in depth about this — because I find it endlessly fascinating, and I also think that so many people are going to benefit from your advice and your understanding and your compassion and you meeting people where they're at.

Robyn: Well I really hope so. Thanks for having me and opening up this conversation. I think it is really important and I'm glad we can cross worlds this way because I know we do have fun talking about it on the side, but…

Carly: We do. Yeah,

Robyn: But you guys aren't there, so come on!

Carly: Robyn, where can folks find you?

Robyn: So you can find me on my website, Robyn Gray counseling dot com. Pretty simple with that. And yeah, that's pretty much it.

Carly: Fabulous. I will absolutely link that in the show notes and thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much again.

Robyn: Oh, awesome, Carly. Thanks for having me!

Carly: Thank you for tuning in today. If you want to learn more about how I can help you, head to TidyRevival.com to learn how I work with people one-on-one or in the Clutter-Free Home Process course community. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to subscribe so you'll always have access to the latest episode.

We would also love to hear your takeaways. Feel free to tag us @TidyRevival on Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok.

The Tidy Revival podcast is written and hosted by me, Carly Adams, and edited by Brittany McLean. Title Song Maverick is by Dresden The Flamingo.

And until next time, remember that….

 
 
 

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