Ep 22 - The Intersection of Therapy and Clutter: Featuring Robyn Gray- Part 1

 

I’m so excited to bring you this conversation with my friend Robyn Gray, an Integrative Therapist based in Sacramento, CA. Join us as we talk about the intersection of therapy and clutter. If you’ve ever felt isolated on your decluttering journey - this is for you!

You can listen right here, on Apple, Amazon, Spotify or you can read the transcription below. Enjoy!

 
 
 
 

Carly: Welcome. Welcome. I am so excited to bring you this conversation with a friend of mine, Robyn Gray. I'll just go ahead and tell you her bio. We're going to jump right into the conversation. I've known Robyn for a few years now. She is a personal friend here in Sacramento, California, but we have had conversations over the years about the intersection of her work and mine.

And so now that it is a new year when this recording will be aired, I think this is just a great time to be sharing this conversation. And so without further ado, Robyn Gray is a licensed marriage and family therapist in Sacramento, California. Utilizing an integrative approach based on somatic experience therapy, a mind-body approach: she specializes in trauma, anxiety, and grief. Thank you so much for being here, Robyn.

Robyn: Oh, thanks for having me, Carly. It's a pleasure!

Carly: I am so excited. I'm just going to jump on in to it — and okay, first I'm going to have you tell us more about the work that you do.

Robyn: Okay, cool. So like you said, I'm a licensed therapist and I'm in private practice here in Sacramento. I mainly work, well, I work only with individuals, adults and I specialize in trauma. I specialize in trauma therapy essentially, and I do utilize a mind-body approach.

So with that, just really looking at how people carry trauma or anxiety and grief in their bodies in addition to the beliefs and thoughts that they have. With that, you see a lot of different types of symptoms though, that a lot of people don't recognize as related to trauma or to their anxiety and grief.

So, really the work I do, a lot of different people come to my practice, different walks of life and we just start slow and explore just how things are impacting them, not only in their everyday lives, but also physically and emotionally and mentally

Carly: Amazing. So what drew you to this work specifically, and why do you feel it's so important?

Robyn: Good question. Specifically being a therapist, probably my own healing journey.

I started going to therapy around like 18 or 19, just being lost, not quite sure what my purpose was and whatnot. And so I found a really great therapist that it just felt really safe at the time. I had no idea what I was actually working on to be fair. But it was such a good, safe experience for me to have an unbiased opinion and to have a safe space where I could really explore different parts of me without feeling judged and shamed.

And then it just unfolded from there. Going to grad school, what really got me into somatic work was in grad school, they really recommend that you do your own therapy. Of course, it's really important that we have experience on both sides of the couch. And so doing that, and then I got really into yoga as just a way to de-stress and started really noticing the mind-body approach and how more integrated I was feeling.

I explained this a lot to clients where a lot of us can feel like we have a thought, we have a belief, but it doesn't necessarily land in us, doesn't feel true. And what I've noticed with the mind-body approach is that it really helps integrate the two. So what we're thinking and believing actually is how we're feeling.

So, it's been a really natural progression for me on that personal journey. And then in terms of my niche with trauma and anxiety and grief, that's just unfolded pretty naturally too, just working with humans and recognizing that many people at their core have some trauma in their past that is affecting what and how they're thinking today, and how they're behaving today.

And so I was noticing without that lens, it felt like my hands were tied and I could only get so far with people. And it just felt like something was missing. And so that's when I really just started diving into the somatic work.

Carly: What are the misconceptions about the intersection of therapy and clutter that you end up helping people work through?

Robyn: Hmm. That's a really good question. I think a lot of people think coming to therapy is about being fixed, right? And it's not. That is one thing with anything that I'm working on somebody with that we try to deconstruct, because it puts pressure on people. They think then something's wrong with them, and that just produces a ton of shame.

With clutter, I really see that more as a symptom of other things going on for the person. And so number one, we don't want to pathologize it. And I think in our society we over-pathologize things. You know, there's a show on hoarding that I think has its benefits because it helps people see that they're not alone and that this is actually not uncommon. But in terms of therapy and working on this stuff, I think the main thing is really helping people reduce their shame around it, because it's not their fault, number one. Number two, as a therapist, a lot of the modalities I use really come from this belief that everything we think, everything we feel and everything we do is trying to function for us.

So when we're looking at behaviors that people are struggling with, like clutter or stuff like that, where I really start with people before we even look at (and I'm putting this in quotes, “fixing it”) is looking at one, how the person actually feels towards that behavior. Because a lot of times people come to therapy and because somebody told them they need to come.

Somebody else has a problem with what they're doing. And so I really want to know, how does that individual actually feel about what they're doing? Which is a great assessment because there we can see if this person is carrying a lot of shame with this embarrassment or if they already have a lot of self-compassion with it.

Because I think, that's another thing — is self-compassion is crucial when looking at making any changes in our life. I always start with that, trying to figure out, how does this person feel about it themselves? But then also again, before we look at things to help change this, is what is the function of us keeping these items?

What is the function of the clutter? Again, that might sound weird where people say, oh no, it's overwhelming, it's stressful. There is always though something that they are getting out of having this pattern in their life, and if we don't highlight that, it just really produces shame and with shame.

People become paralyzed, or you know, they grip harder on this thing. So that is a big part of my work with people is really looking at how is this pattern actually serving you. You know, we are a consumer society and, to be frank, shopping and bringing, buying things and whatnot, there's a dopamine effect.

So why would we ever say to somebody, how dare you do this when you're to trying to feel better? You know? It just makes sense. Our psyches are always trying to feel better. So that is probably the number one thing, is really just deconstructing that shame and giving people the insight to see like, oh my gosh, wait, there is a reward to me doing this.

Whether it's avoiding the overwhelm of looking at it or it's helping them, like with grief, I know you do, you help people like through that. Right. And decluttering with that, with grief, it's extremely common for people to want to keep things exactly the way they were prior to the loss.

Familiarity is a very important thing to our psyche and consistency. So again, we want to look at how that's serving the person and what that's actually doing to their nervous system, their psyche. And with that it really, the light bulbs go on in people and they start being so much kinder and softer with themselves.

And that I see is really where they start seeing, okay, wait, I have more of a choice with this now.

Carly: Yes, yes. Like not, “This is me and I'm broken." You can't see the air quotes at home.

Robyn: Exactly. And so many people come in feeling that way, and that is a hard place to do any type of work.

So that's the big thing. The other thing is, people don't come to me or you when they have clarity about things. I see a lot of people really conflicted about it, and I do a lot of parts work with people. And so we will look at the different parts. The part of you that wants to get rid of this stuff, and then the part of you that is struggling to get rid of it.

Both of those parts of you are so important here. And if we don't look at both of them and their goals, what they're valuing in this, it's really tricky for people, and typically if they just get rid of it, they'll just bring more stuff in because the part of them that wass enjoying having this stuff (or it was serving them in some way) now is feeling this huge void and not getting their needs met.

So, I also deconstruct in that way by just looking at the different parts of the person involved in the process.

Carly: Okay. There are so many things you were saying along this that I ended up grabbing a piece of paper and writing some things down to circle back because the work that we do, and again, I say this all the time, I am not a therapist.

I'm not qualified in therapy in any way, but some of the things that you're talking about, I'm like, yes, yes, yes. Because this is stuff that comes up so frequently again and again and again in the work that I do, and that I'm constantly talking to people about and reassuring them that you are not alone in this.

Yes. Because it can feel incredibly isolating. And that, to your point, something's wrong with you, and everybody else can do it. “Why can't I?” is the thing comes up. Yep. And to your point, this comes up frequently. I end up digging into this with people a little bit and oftentimes suggesting therapy if they're not in it, as a way to work through this.

Because I'm like, this obviously goes outside of the realms of the things that we are going to work through, but I think if you haven't considered this, it could be beneficial for you to emotionally work through it. And I really try and do that in a gentle way because, depending on where somebody's coming from, that may or may not be.

Actually, usually it is because we're digging into the emotional stuff by that point. But I hear a lot from folks, like, I used to be able to keep up with this. I don't know what happened, but suddenly things got out of control. And I say, let's take a pause and let's talk through it, because what's been going on in the last couple years or what's been going on since that happened and what we find a hundred percent of the time is that there has been a, what I call a triggering event, and that can be illness in the family, sickness in the family, you needing to take on responsibilities to care for people. It can be a global pandemic, and suddenly having everything in your life switch as far as your schedule.

It can be divorce, it can be a rough time in a relationship, any of these things can trigger this change where suddenly you're not able to do as much as you used to because so much of your energy is spent taking care of this other thing, and you just have to push pause on this. Have you, I just want to hear from you, have you found that to be the case as well?

Robyn: Oh, 100%. Absolutely. And it's so fascinating when that comes up in every session basically. And for them to see that connection can be so empowering because then there's self-compassion, right? Of like, yes, and this makes sense why I'm struggling. Yes. And look, we only have so much energy.

And so if our emotional energy needs to be going towards something else, no offense, but our house is going to take the backseat, you know? For some people, they cope by being overly perfectionistic in their home, but then they might be neglecting the other emotional stuff. It could be an interesting two-way street there.

I think tracing it back, that's so good. Open that conversation up for people, because right there, we're already reducing the shame. This makes sense why you're not able to do the things that you once were able to. And also to touch on that — is so many people, we hold ourselves to expectations of how we used to be, but we're not living in the here and now of, “What am I capable of today?” Right? And so just saying, I used to be able to do this. What's wrong with me that I can't now? Well, right, that person's carrying a ton of shame with that. Yes. Or guilt. And so it's about deconstructing that and saying like, look, you're a human being and this makes sense.

And it's okay! It doesn't mean you can't get that back, or it's going to look different for you moving forward. Right. So we're constantly evolving, and I think that's really, that's a hard concept for people when we feel like we’re regressing, but the reality is it's not. It's, our system is compensating in other ways that are probably more important at that time in our life than keeping the house or this room a certain way.

Carly: And to your point earlier, something that I wrote down is ongoing work, because when you were talking about, and it falls into this as well, when people come to therapy, sometimes they can hope to get fixed. And when they come to work with me, they can hope to fix the problem and it can feel demoralizing if things backtrack a little bit in their systems or clutter returns, or they've realized that the therapy work isn't done. But what I talk to people a lot, like just really frequently about is reframing your thought around both of these types of work. Honestly, to instead say — okay, it's basically, it's a marathon, not a sprint.

And by marathon, I mean it's just going to be an ongoing thing for the rest of your life because we're works in progress. Like, my husband and I turn to each other sometimes and we're like, oh, still not perfect. I guess I'll keep working on it like, we're just not going to be perfect. And just like other things like getting good sleep, eating balanced meals, movement, and hydration, it's not going to be a one-and-done thing.

It's going to be a little bit — consistently — will help you be the person that you want to be. But some days are going to be better than others. Some chapters will be better than others, and that's okay.

Robyn: Exactly, exactly. I'm constantly saying to people, it's progress over perfection and people don't notice their progress if it's not tangible. Right? So like, I'm sure you run into that a lot with the clutter — oh no, I brought more clutter in. And it's like, well, hold on, look, you're aware of that this time, instead of it being several years later and like, whoa, how did all this happen? So even that insight and the awareness is huge progress.

Huge. And I think the most important thing we can do when we are in that progression is self-compassion when it's not perfect, right? Because it's like, they used to say criticism is what motivates us. It does not, research shows, it does not. Kristin Neff does a lot of research on self-compassion.

She's wonderful. And what it actually shows is that criticism of ourselves paralyzes us. It takes us into a fight or flight zone where then we just don't want to do anything — but the self-compassion piece when we can say, okay, I'm doing the best I can at this moment with what I have, or “Yes, here's the progress. I have insight about this behavior.”

Now even if the behavior hasn't changed, that's when we soften. That's when we can say like, okay, I can make a step forward, because we're not pouring all the stress hormones into us that ends up paralyzing us.

Carly: A hundred percent. Something that I wanted to touch on too, again, I'm just going to the things that I jotted down, but I'm so excited about this. When you were talking about digging into the function of clutter, I think that that is absolutely huge. Sometimes it can lead to us figuring out the best system for that person. As one example, I, again, I am not a therapist, but something that I notice really, really consistently and have read about in books for like organizing, for ADHD.

This is something that we will also be talking about on the podcast this year — this specifically comes up with folks who have ADHD or their children have ADHD, but it is also very common with folks who may not identify with that — is the feeling of, if I can't see it, it doesn't exist. Therefore, it's easier for me and more comfortable for me to be able to see everything, so that I know where it is when I need it.

And if it's behind closed doors, there's a really good chance I'm just going to forget about it. In those cases, once I hear that, I say, that's great. Totally get where you're coming from. But then we're able to talk through some simple systems with some easy categorization with bins that are really easy to see. We’re going to be like, clear acrylic bins are your friend.

We're going to slap a label on it too, so that your brain doesn't have to do that extra leg work. There's going to be no lid on it. We're going to be able to easily grab what we need, easily put it back and see where things are, but then the categorization will help us. Give items home so that we can maintain the system and so that you don't necessarily need to have everything out.

You can also have that tidy space that is going to help give you some more bandwidth mentally, but you can still find things. And when we talk through those possibilities, that can be a game changer. Like, okay, I'm not going to lose it if I can see where it is even more easily than having everything out. And I can easily find things when I need them. That can be the game changer and flip a switch for people.

Robyn: That's beautiful. And, what I love about that is it's individualized. Yes. Right? Because I think so many people think organizing or decluttering, having your home kept up, whatever, has to look one way. And it just doesn't, everybody is different with what works for them.

Carly: And which is why, in my course community, that's something that we end up talking about is thinking about how your brain works, what's good for you. Yes. Macro versus micro organizing and leaning into the things that feel good because there's not going to be a should here.

I'm not going to say you should have six shirts because I have six shirts. (P.S. I don't have six shirts.) You know, that's not how it is. We talk about creating solutions based on your individualized needs and your hobbies and your household and everything. And, it is a very personal process, but my role is to help you make the decisions that are best for you specifically.

Robyn: Yes, exactly.

Carly: Ugh. Can we talk about the word should for a little bit? Oh, I did a whole episode on it. When you were talking about like the guilt that people feel and how people come to therapy because someone told them that they should do it, I'm just like, ugh. There's that word again. Can you talk about that? The mindset around that.

Robyn: Totally. Well, I love the phrase “Stop shoulding on yourself.” Right? And like, it's so true. I think, I was working with a client last night and she just said, I didn't realize until therapy how much of an inner critic I had.

And I think inner critics often carry that phrase, you should be doing this, and so we walk around with that phrase in our head just as if like, we're breathing, right? We don't even realize what it does to us. And a lot of the work I do is — everything we think, our body feels. I experiment a lot with people like, when you say I should be doing X, Y, and Z, how does that feel in you?

How does that land in your body? And often people are like, well, I feel really tense, or, oh, I'm holding my breath. And it's like, that is affecting you then. I often, a really quick shift for people is just saying, change your “should” to “could” — ooh, I could, I could do this. Because again, I think a big part of our human psyche at our core is, we need our agency.

When we have shoulds that are taken away from us, we have no choice then. Right? Or if we make a different choice, then we feel guilt and shame, because we “should have” done this, and that's in quotes. And so by simply changing the phrase to, “I could do this." Again, it softens people and it gives us a choice, because then we can say, well, okay, where was that should coming from?

Is that something external that's put on us by society? Maybe the way we were raised, maybe other people's values, and when we can externalize where it's actually coming from, a lot of people realize like, wow, that's actually not aligned with my values. That's not aligned with how I would talk to my own child, right?

I do a lot of inner child work, and so a lot of deconstructing that kind of thing. So, I think it's really just pointing it out to people, seeing how it's actually affecting them, which can take a while. Because a lot of people are afraid to lose their shoulds. Because then they think, well, then I'm going to be lazy, or then I'm not going to do anything. And it's like, well, let's, let's experiment with that and actually see if that's true!

Carly: Or rejecting ideas from their family structure, their friend structure, what they got on Instagram as a heavy-handed suggestion.

Robyn: Exactly. Instagram, TikTok, all those things. Lately, especially in the pandemic, that's really been prevalent of shaming people, I think there's not enough room for nuance there, so it doesn't leave enough room for the human experience. So it's just really about looking at it and how that's actually affecting people, and for them to see, okay, that's actually harming me more than it is motivating me or supporting me with my goals. I love it so much. 

We had such a great time during this conversation and it ended up being a little bit longer than we'd previously planned, so we decided to make it a two-parter, and we're going to drop the second half of this episode next week. thank you so much for tuning in today, and if you wanna learn more about how I can help you head to TidyRevival.com to learn more about how I work with people one-on-one or in our Clutter-Free Home Process private community.

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe so you'll always have access to the latest episode. We would also love to hear your takeaways. Feel free to tag us at Tidy Revival on Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok.

The Tidy Revival podcast is written and hosted by me, Carly Adams, and edited by Brittany McLean. Title Song Maverick is by Dresden The Flamingo.

And until next time, remember that…


 
 
 

Links mentioned in this episode

 
 
Tidy Revival Podcast, Decluttering, OrganizationCarly AdamsTidy RevivalDecluttering, triggering events, therapy